May 28, 2003
CERN Physicists Plan To Make Mini Black Holes

Scientists at the European Center for Nuclear Research (CERN) want to use their atom smasher to make mini-black holes to study Hawking Radiation.

I mean, how can anyone resist the urge to imagine future headlines like "Artificial Black Hole Escapes Laboratory, Eats Chicago" or some such thing? In reality, there is no risk posed by creating artificial black holes, at least not in the manner planned with the LHC. The black holes produced at CERN will be millions of times smaller than the nucleus of an atom; too small to swallow much of anything. And they'll only live for a tiny fraction of a second, too short a time to swallow anything around them even if they wanted to.

I really really really hope they are right about the lack of danger involved in doing this. In James P. Hogan's science fiction novel Thrice Upon A Time his hero just happened to be working on a machine to send messages back thru time. Therefore his hero was able to save the planet Earth by sending a message back to warn a European physics research group that it would make a black hole if it conducted its planned experiment. But in reality we would have no such miraculous means to save us from a black hole eating away at the core of planet Earth.

Share |      Randall Parker, 2003 May 28 04:44 PM  Dangers Tech General


Comments
Patrick said at May 28, 2003 7:18 PM:

Let's not forget the marvellous David Brin book, Earth. In this, an illegal experiment to make a blackhole powered power station is destroyed when Environmentalists storm the building and set the black hole free to sink into the middle of the Earth.

Theory said that the black hole in question should be decaying (via Hawking radiation) until it disappeared but to be sure a large set of gravity wave probes was set up to check on it. Sure enough, it was exactly where theory said it would be, and it was decaying. Problem was they then spotted another one, also in the Earth, and it was growing. They backtrack the movements and conclude it entered the earth at Tungusta, Siberia, in 1908, and the rest of the book goes on from there...

Randall Parker said at May 28, 2003 8:20 PM:

Patrick, Yes, that was excellent. He also captured the future surveillance society idea in that book and then amplified on that idea in his non-fiction work The Transparent Society.

James Blodgett said at September 29, 2003 12:43 AM:

There is more risk here than is commonly thought. New string theory models suggest that black hole creation at colliders is plausible. String theorists have suggested that future colliders will be "black hole factories. " Most theorists expect that black holes will dissipate via Hawking radiation, but Hawking radiation has never been seen nor tested. It may not work as expected.

For references, see www.risk-evaluation-forum.org

sean sadel-stevens said at February 28, 2004 9:54 PM:

well im not a physisist ort even a great speller but from what seams logical to me that hawking radiation might not be from the black hole decaing but the reminence of matter coming threw from the other side or sides as it may be im still not certain but im thinking at the singularity point the normal spin of electrons wich is our version of + time gets down to zero and then what ever leftovers dont reach the zero state (forgot the quote but its about the effect of continouse mass consuption by a black hole eg cozmic background radiation and how it makes some regions around the singularity pasable) anyhow oops sidtrack aside after reaching the other side in the perrelel univers or pocket univers eitherway perrellel in spin the matter would be forced out of the black hole gradualy reaching the zero spin outside of the singularity on the otherside and in this way escaping while starting to gain opposit or normal mass for that side reching the event horizon and escaping in small relative volume but anyhow like i said im not a physisist nor can i spell it ;-) but if im right then black holes dont fade away they just consume all matter within there range and grow increasing there range and mass the outer mass growing the singularity a constant what does it mean it means if you make black holes no matter the size unless there in a compleat void there going to grow and thats not good for us however i also have an idea of how to kill a black hole if you combine anti matter and normal matter they cancel eachother out well when you come down to it you could do the same accelerations with anti matter as you can with normal matter to creat anti matter black holes so you get oposit spins on both sides tricky part is getting it to the equal mass as the normal black hole but if you can do that then just introduce them to eachother and they should canccel out but meh i probbly need to lear alot more physics ;-P

groshe said at March 21, 2004 7:31 PM:

its not dangerous at all, talk to any fucking physicist, you dont see the earth spiraling into the sun, do you? youre totally safe froma black hole, as long as you dont reach a certain distance (event horizon) and are an appropriate distance away (based on the mass of the black hole), and that distance is overly dramatized by people...for the particularly small black holes they will/have been making at cern, its frankly ridiculous youd think there is any danger involved. do some research, twats.

ps. black holes will be a major breakthrough in the eventual creation of a time machine around the year 2030 or so

Wilko Willemsen said at August 4, 2004 1:13 PM:

Even a rather big mini blackhole of 1 billion tonnes would take eternity to eat the earth. So even if there is one dancing around the earth´s core at this very moment we wouldn´t notice much of it.

Time keeps on tickin said at October 7, 2004 10:02 PM:

Whose future is it going to be?

Dknex said at November 13, 2004 12:48 PM:

lol groshe i like the John Titor optimism....

robert crowson said at January 13, 2005 8:11 PM:

First lets remember before trying to make a black hole that your dealing with pure antimatter near by. Our matter is doomed to be without light, for as opposing antimatter being pure light. And thats the picture on the other side being pure light that is with the light within mass being inflicted lets say with that light. ALL matter we see is therefore a product of that light.If you can follow that you can see your dealing with the eraser not the pencil. Not only that but your forgetting that tme itself has no meaning with this equation and that a Black Hole is not really an intrusion but has been sealed by means of a by product that isnt there. AND yes it was water.

MrCoeglin said at January 15, 2005 8:21 AM:

OK. Earth will go under for sure if they try to create a mini- black hole. No matter how small it is or for how short a time it is calculated to exist, it will stabilize itself once its created because what they think is empty space is not. From here it will grow and now it is very hard to stop. Before they create a black hole they must know how to destroy one.

Life and all that we hold dear is doomed.

to-di-do!
/IHateToAlwaysBeRight

Wrupp said at March 7, 2005 5:30 PM:

"you dont see the earth spiraling into the sun, do you?"

"youre totally safe froma black hole, as long as you dont reach a certain distance (event horizon) and are an appropriate distance away (based on the mass of the black hole),"


Gross,
first of all the sun is not a black hole, I can see that even without any reasearch.
Secondly, that "certain and appropriate" distance has not been determined to any certainty simply because no one has gotten close enough to one to measure, so all we have to go on is a calculated estimate by the same idiots that want to create one here on earth.
Thirdly, the most famous of all last words are "hey watch this"..

Persistence of time said at September 6, 2005 4:50 AM:

A fiew days more at scool would expire every fear from your mind(fantasy) ...

adneb said at November 24, 2005 1:21 PM:

I have created black holes before and it's not a problem. Don't worry about it. - adneb'

Undermind said at December 23, 2005 3:56 PM:

I've got a black hole in my wallet right now.

Brimtown said at January 10, 2006 5:19 AM:

Remember what Ian Malcom said in Jurrasic Park: "Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

h-man said at March 9, 2006 8:54 AM:

Fractal time theory points to the creation of a singularity at some point in the near future. Perhaps a tiny black hole falling to the centre of the earth is that singularity.

tapeboy said at March 21, 2006 12:33 PM:

Good gracious, first off, the exact range from the black hole that things can be allowed CAN be found simply by doing a few equations with the amount of matter put in, and the inverse square law can do the rest. Furthermore, hawking radiation has been found in several occasions, in the observation of supermassive blackholes, and also,in the supposed miniblackhole, which was created in new york, due to Hawking radiation, it lived for one millionbillionth of a second, also, gravity was not the dominant force, so no risk was posed. The problem is getting them to stay around long enough, not trying to advert the disasters you read in science FICTION books.

Mathias said at April 5, 2006 12:06 PM:

A classic quote.

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."

~ Nikola Tesla

Jason said at September 6, 2006 8:31 PM:

here is what I wonder.... lets say a mini black hole is created.... lets say that it is stable enough to exist for 5 minutes..... lets say its small size means any free standing loose object more than 2 ft away will NOT be affected in any signifigant way by gravity... IE not getting sucked into the dang thing.... but anything inside that 2ft radius WILL be affected and if light enough that earth's gravity will not hold it down will get sucked into the thing..... ok fine so it can't suck up the earth.... the earth is safe... but wait!!.... we are forgeting a very important bit of matter that we all need to exist... AIR!!!.... when a gas is introduced into a vacumm it imediately starts to expand to evenly dispurse in said area.... it wont be instant... 1cc of gas may take .00000002 seconds to expand evenly in a 2cubic meter vacumm.... that isn't exact math mind you just examples... point is its quick.... and we know wind can get fast naturally let alone when forced by atificial means..... some of you smarter folks may have already figured out where I'm going with this.... if not.... THE BLACK HOLE WILL START TO COMSUME THE AIR AROUND IT! AND IF IT IS OPEN TO THE EARTHS ENVIRONMENT.... ALL THE AIR HELD DOWN BY EARTHS GRAVITY WILL MOVE IN TO FILL THAT VACUMM AND IT TURN GET CONSUMED ALSO!... so for a short time we will all experience extreamly windy conditions as the air preassure trys to equalize around the world as the black hole sucks in more and more air.... eventually there will sit the earth safe and sound and NOT consumed by this tiny black hole... and there will sit all our dead bodys safely on an earth with an atmosphere to thin to sustain our lives..... so I must wonder.... are the accelerometers sealed air tight?.....

luis sancho said at September 13, 2006 6:32 PM:

lets consider that gaga guy hawkings is wrong. He already apologized for a mistake. All the black holes we have spot in the Universe are highly stable. Lets consider the last theories about black holes, which include dark matter and dark energy we dont see, so we cannot verify. If so they will be stable too. And finally lets consider the absolute simple truth: hawkings radiation might evaporate only black holes that do not absorb matter faster than the evaporation they cause. It is like a man who evaporates sweat but drinks to substitute that sweat. So in all those highly probably cases the black hole will be stable and grow at an acelerated path eating first (god is just) the terrorist (scientists) who have done it. Now let us put all those probablities as not the dominant probability, 25%. If you multiply that probability for the human species population, it means 1500 million human beings. so those people are going to kill 1 500 million human beings if they succeed. the people who destroyed the towers were going to kill 3000 people if they succeeded. They were called the biggest terrorists of the world. They were offered 25 millions for his capture death or a live. Question is, why we dont offer a similar quantity to capture death or alive the biggest terrorist team of human history? Including the ga ga guy. Because the tree of science which extincts the tree of life is the new religion of mankind. Do not eat of the fruits of the tree of science because the day you do you will die.
and if not they will make strangelets and we will die. And if not they will make metal nanobacteria and we will die. And if not... the list is growing as much as the arrogance of physicists.

HOMO SAPIENS AT RISK said at September 14, 2006 1:10 AM:

CERN IGNORES THE RISK THAT BLACK HOLES EMITTING HAWKING RADIATIONS ALSO SHOULD GROW AT EXPONENTIAL RATE
Even if hawkings radiation exist and black holes can evaporate, emitting energy, what matters is the ratio between its feeding SPEED, that increases energy and its emisssion. Thus Hawking radiation accompanied by a feeding black holes will never evaporate. In those terms, the CERN BLACK HOLE WILL BOTH EMIT HAWKING RADIATION IN ITS TINY BIDIMENSIONAL SURFACE AT GEOMETRICAL RATE BUT WILL GROW IN 3 DIMENSIONS AT EXPONENTIAL RATE: the black hole will eat faster than loose weight. It is thus possile that a black hole emitting radiation will grow exponentially over the surrounding space-time, extinguishing the atmosphere of the earth in less than a minute . The ratio is easy to calculate. A pentadimensional black hole expands its fifth dimension in the fourth dimensional Universe, 'sucking in'space IN a classic logarithmic, exponential growth of ideal reproduction. The series is simple: 1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024, every 8 planck times, the black hole absorbs 1000 times its initial mass. Thus within less than a aminute the black hole can devore the earth.

Andrew said at September 23, 2006 3:30 PM:

Colleagues,

Having read these pages, I contacted Professor George Ellis - one of the most eminent physicists who worked on Black Holes theory with Stephen Hawking, as well as a highly reputable philosopher of science and receiver of the Temperton Prize.
In his reply, Professor Ellis wrote (E-mail of 22-9-06): "I don't think there is any risk. The theories quoted are highly speculative and have no experimental basis. And higher energy particles already exist in the universe - they are in cosmic rays. I don't think it is anything to get worried about".

Perhaps this should put things in perspective, diverting concern toward global climate change and nuclear proliferation?

Andrew
24-9-06


Cygni B said at September 25, 2006 9:50 PM:

What if a black hole is created and we all survive? Someone once flew a kite in a rainstorm and became famous. To repeat that rainstorm experiment would take an idiot and a rainstorm. Achieving a black hole with survival will guarantee one thing. And that is that it will be done again but of course with a twist. What twist would that be? Well of course.. .bigger... .better. ...brighter. ...with more power....etc. We of course are not short on idiots or rainstorms. What is the real motivation? If it is not simple envy of a person that can stand in the rain and be allowed by society to be an idiot then what is it? Science must remain pregnant to birth more science. Perhaps we are fat happy pregnant idiots, taking for granted that the glow on our faces is maternal bliss. More research and understanding should be put into kites and rainstorms before turning the key to__________. Strange, that I don’t know what to fill in the blank here with. It seems that everyone but me knows what should go in this blank. I wonder if I am less or more of an idiot for not knowing.

busta said at November 24, 2006 12:39 PM:

you people's faith in science fiction and fear of science astonishes me. CERN has been making antimatter-matter explosions, gamma ray sources, and high power particle collisions for years...all these processes make for good fiction, but like all scientists, they do know what they're doing, and nothing is going to happen, just as nothing has yet happened; except another interesting factiod for uneducated idiots to blow way out of proportion. What, are you guys just hoping to be the one to say "I told you so" right before the Earth is destroyed? keep dreaming...

Cygni B said at March 15, 2007 10:56 PM:

"dreaming"? "science fiction"? These terms seem more appropriate for the scientist who wants a black hole at any scale, at any cost, and now. (and to those with nothing to lose) Why must the proper approach to this subject be rushed? Our impression of what occurs in a black hole is theory and distant observation of what we label as black holes. Are our observations skewed by what is happening beyond the event horizon? Is 'time' even going the same direction as we now are? Sometimes if you look at a spinning wheel it looks like it is going backwards. The point is not that the wheel is spinning, the point is that our observations can be backwards. You (Busta)also wrote "but like all scientists, they do know what they're doing" Well..."all"...must not include a few I have known. Of course, I always know what I am doing, such as in posting this comment. Or, would you say that I do not know what I am doing? Which of course would disprove your point. I have no problem with confidence in science. I have a problem with confidence in scientists. In fact, it is ridiculous to imply that "confidence" is going to somehow create good science. Accurate, exhaustive facts, method, and observation in a logical progression is not always obtainable. And if not, why take a risk?

Andrew M. Martinez said at March 28, 2007 9:39 AM:

well i am but a common man and i have to say though i am not as educated as many who post in this blog I can see the stupidity in all of it.
i do not think that at this point of our lives (meaning the earths life) we should be doing all these experiments that could have a great impact on our society today.You all forget our planet is young ,we have already proven the great climate changes known as global warming and that is certainly a big factor in the future of the planet why dont we just solve one problem and add a knoch to our belts then we can all argue again about black holes.
I ADMIT that i am very very interested in black holes and would like to be on this planet the day we create a black hole from scratch if you all want to solve something interesting without makeing an uneducated mistake (or remark at that)the read the book "the hole in the universe" and this should intrest you in something other that just sly comebacks about something not even the most educated scientists could possibly know about at this point.
give it a few years mabey the awnsers will come out of nowhere or atleast from a safe distance

frankie said at April 2, 2007 8:46 AM:

well yall, I'm no scientist, hell, I'm barely even smart. but, i'll tell you this much, sounds like to me that somebody's asking "hey, what's this little red button do?". and you can always leave to to the rocket scientists to ask the dummest damm questions! tell ya what, I'm gonna practice bending over so that when the time comes, I can kiss my ass goodbye!

OmegaD said at April 9, 2007 2:40 PM:

I am surprised at how quickly we forget the past. If history has taught us anything, it is how prone we as humans are to making big mistakes. The only thing that seems to change over time is the impact our mistakes have on the world.

I do not share your confidnece in the so-called "facts of science." Science is about observations and models, not arrogant claims of conclusions the observations should never have led to. I could list countless examples of scientists making dumb assertions and other scientists decades later declaring the former as uninformed. The bottom line is that these scientists have no idea what they're dealing with - they only know what they have heard from others and what they have observed, as far as they were able to perceive and interpret these correctly.

That said, I doubt they'll create a life-threatening black hole, for the simple reason that we give ourselves too much credit. I don't think we could destroy the earth if we tried. That's not in the plan (but that's a different discussion.)

In my opinion these experiments which attempt to observe an alleged condition from a theoretical past are a waste of money. I'm amazed at how efficient we are at wasting money. You might say, "but what about all that we've learned?" So what? Does a starving African care that we have an RV on Mars? How is that useful?

"Science" has become a stage for the arrogant, and the world is paying to be entertained.

millz said at April 23, 2007 6:51 AM:

Firstly, I would suggest anyone here to truly research and understand what a black hole is, as it isn't just a black spot that sucks everything in its way and is the eventual evil everybody expects. Secondly, have some faith in scientists' intelligence. Come on, what fucking moron would conduct black hole experiment in Earth atmosphere... In CERN, they have all the improtant stuff hidden in vacuum and powerful magnetic fields, so there is no reason to be worried about, unless their power station gets fucked up and magnetic fields are released, but that would destroy the very black hole too.

millz said at April 23, 2007 6:55 AM:

OmegaD:

I guess you don't understand the aim of SCIENCE, which is to RESEARCH and EXPERIMENTALLY PROVE THEORIES. Of course, the starving children of africa won't care about this, but TBH I truly believe this will lead to some really interesting research being done, and maybe some day it will help the starving children of africa to get some food and live well. Remember, that everything we have now is due to our technological progress, and if we stop it now, we can only wait for regress, instead of progress.

OmegaD said at May 7, 2007 2:48 PM:

Millz:

There is a lot of confusion about what the aim of science is. Science at its roots is about observation. It is useful in creating models, called theories, which are useful in predicting the outcome of experiments. Science cannot prove a theory. A theory is so named for the simple reason that it is not a fact. It is a model that seems to work well. For example - the theory of evolution, or the theory of relativity. These are models that could prove to be incorrect or incomplete as we gather more data and our understanding grows.

That said, I don't doubt that this research is "interesting" - that's how I stumbled upon this forum! I question the value. I question the priority. I question how much money we throw at these (presently) worthless pursuits. I think technology is very valuable, but some of the research we do seems to me like a HUGE waste of money IN COMPARISON to other things we could be spending it on. (For example, SETI, lunar rover, psychic teleportation research, and so on.)

As to the technical aspect of what you posted, again, the fact that they're counting on it being contained in a vacuum makes me chuckle. Ever heard of the Law of Moore? Haha...

I like your comment "have some faith in the scientist's intelligence"... I watched a program one time where they couldn't figure out why the star they were observing had such a strange emittance pattern, and everyone was up in arms... until they realized they were observing it from beneath the Earth's atmosphere! Haha... I love shows like that - they show us how intelligent we really are (though we like to view ourselves as gods of the mind.)

Also, you mentioned some of us needed a lesson on "what a black hole is" - care to elaborate?

Jordan Doyle said at May 22, 2007 1:43 AM:

HELLO!

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!

If scientists are, lets just say, WRONG, then doesn't anyone even care that there is a chance that it many bring about THE END OF HUMAN EXISTANCE.
I'm no boffin scientist, but I certainly have a problem when it comes to statistics. After all, we all know that sometimes, just sometimes THINGS CAN GO WRONG. What if the black hole just manages to stabbalise long enough to even suck one thing in? Whilst the scientists are saying "NOOOOOOO!", the black hole would have started growing within a second.

SO.
When everyone is sitting in their chairs, gleeful about some big experiment WHICH WAS REJECTED BY OTHER COUNTRIES, consider what I just said, and maybe, just maybe you'll feel like me; terrified

I may only be 15, but I certainly want to see past 23rd march, 2007

Which, may I add, IS TOMORROW!

With that revelation, if anyone, ANYONE has any brains, they would start questioning NOW, as in NOW!
You might only have 1 day left.
You never know.

Nathan said at May 30, 2007 8:08 AM:

Even though the chances of 'disaster' in this experiment appear to be very small; it's the proportion of 'disaster' in this case that must halt the experiment.

If we say there's a 5% chance (and studies have been done to indicate there's anywhere from an 11 - 25 percent chance of failure) that something goes wrong in a given experiment you must consider what the outcome of failure is, if indeed failure occurs. If the outcome of failure is simply a puff of white smoke and nothing else then the risk is worth while. If, on the other hand, the outcome of failure is the (for lack of a better term) implosion of earth into a singularity the size of a grain of sand, then a 5% chance becomes too much to accept.

I think that research dollars could be of greater use if they were put towards the massive potential benefit of stem cells and the like, rather than trying to look for traces of particles which may or may not confirm the existance of an 11th dimension...

D. Gray said at May 30, 2007 12:20 PM:

Some Historical Context on Hawking's Theories ( mini black holes ):

The astrophysical universe of the mid-70's is not the universe we know today...

* Black hole existance as real objects was purely speculative at this time.
* Energy production in quasars and Seyfert galaxies was poorly understood.
* Cosmological background radiation was not mapped nor totally explained.
* Black holes were thought to be extremely rare objects --- as if black holes were disappearing by some unknown mechanism over cosmic timescales.

The 'new' theory of black hole evaporation / radiation at this time (Hawking Radiation) was eagerly embraced as an explanation for each of these observations... It seemed to solve many problems.

OF COURSE, THIS WAS TOTAL NONSENSE...

The astrophysical universe of 2007 looks very different...

*Black holes are common --- an estimated 10,000 stellar mass black holes exist in the Milky Way galaxy alone.
*Supermassive black holes exist in the heart of most, if not all galaxies.
*Supermassive black holes drive the enormous energy production in quasars -- not the evaporation of primordial black holes left over from the Big Bang as had been suggested.

Within the context of the modern astronomical universe, Hawking radiation theory is becoming an unnecessary anachronism.

It is an explanation in search of a problem which no longer exists...

That Hawking's theories should be used to rationalize micro black hole creation at CERN is completely out of context. It is a non-sequitur ...

It is bad science; This is a terrible SCANDAL in the making.

D. Gray said at May 30, 2007 12:29 PM:

There is a * 'RISK-EVALUATION-FORUM' * elsewhere on the web.

It is easy to find by doing a search of 'CERN risk-evaluation-forum'...

Here the topic of CERN (LHC) black hole creation is discussed
as well as other potential dangers.

It isn't an organization, but they have a NEWSLETTER.

atc said at June 5, 2007 1:34 PM:

Cygni -

as for the spinning wheel comment...maybe your observation is backwards. My observation sees the wheel spinning backwards from the timing of light pulses. Ever hear of a timing belt? Did you know that mechanics set these belts by having a light pulse until the belt looks like it is no longer moving? Put some faith in science, get a job and stop being a hippy.

Earth is 4 the living! said at June 12, 2007 5:43 AM:

POST ON YOUTUBE! Let the world know! and lets have everyones comments. I was oblivious to all of this until I actually looked. Why have my friends and family never heard of CERN and their plans in the name of science. What about in the name of the people and for the f**ing people! Would the world at large agree or would they be absolutely terrified. Because I am... This is an international concern. The only ones consenting to this are doing a pritty good job already of reducing the life expectancy of many nations such as through war, nuclear energy, starvation (ommitting to do something).They have the nerve to spend 8 Billion on something that potentialy could end eveything. If nothing bad happens,they're not going stop and be satisfied, they're going to continue, that is their job. THAT IS WHAT THEY LIVE FOR AND MAY DIE FOR! and take us with them.Who should we really fear the known TERRORISTS or the secret TERRORISTS. All members of CERN or others who are involved are only conCERNed about what they want, what they believ and what they think is right. They live for their discoveries and thus who's to say they would not die to achieve what they long for... knowledge!!!! of the UNKNOWN!!!. Do they value life or are they just as self-absorbed as terrorists... There is an obvious reason why we do not have black holes in the same vicinity as earth and our own star. Both would not exist.I have only recently begun to use the Internet, so when it comes to youtube and that,I would be useless at trying to advertise this concern on such sites. But I am going to have a go at it.. everyone else sould do this and may it may become common knowledge. I am also going to send emails to local talk show radio stations and so forth.... PLEASE DO THE SAME IF YOU ARE THAT conCERNed

cygni b said at June 13, 2007 11:18 PM:

atc
Thank you. I have never been called a hippy before. It is a good "what if" daydream for me to think about though. You ask me to have "faith" in science. Why would science need "faith"? Then we could have 'faith based science' or perhaps 'science based faith'(that one would make me ready for Hollywood.) I do have faith, but it is based in the Creator of the universe, not the organization/observational skills of busy ants, though I have enjoyed my time as an ant. You say I should get a job? Well, I am soon to retire. I have worked since my teen years, through under-graduate and graduate school and beyond. After a couple of hundred college credits, I love science, it's just so hard to find in it's pure form. By that I mean, not contaminated with budget concerns, political goals or necessity, agendas as diverse and numerous as the personalities of their greatest supporters. Scientists are not immune from anything. But the public gives them a permission/immunity gift and they or we sadly except this gift and imagine ourselves immune from disaster, or collective failure. I suppose I would enjoy the company of those working at 'CERN', but would we let them baby-sit our children? I guess you insist that we should for the sake of science. And if not for science then for the sake of what? Your point on the light pulses making a spinning wheel or belt appear to stop is well-taken. However, it supports my point more than whatever your point was. I was postulating that the actual motion could be reversed from our observation. You postulate that our fine tuned observation has no idea whether things are going backward or forward. Your point is without direction, as are black holes. What better way to prove science is going nowhere than to create a black hole. It kind of sums up a lot of things for me. Yes, I should have been a hippy. Perhaps there is still time.

D. Gray said at June 20, 2007 12:26 PM:

Before you panic:
I think that the CERN collider (LHC) has been slightly delayed until the end of this year or the beginning of next ( early, 2008 ).

It is my understanding that the startup date for this collider (LHC) has been delayed due to an explosion in one of the super-cooled magnets which compose the LHC --- requiring a re-design for this component.

The new startup date is in early 2008 according to reports... ("Particle Collider Startup Likely Delayed Until 2008" : AP)

Ryan Findlay said at July 9, 2007 7:14 AM:

Alright, would it not atleast be a good idea to conduct a risk assessment? Assessing all possible and improbable outcomes? Because as far as I am aware, there is no other life in the universe (pessimistic outlook). So if we were to destroy ourselves would it not be a universal tradegy? In my opinion (because all of the afore mentioned comments are conjecture and thus opinions [even from Dr. Hawkins]) would it not be more intelligent to plan for the worst case scenario? And atleast have a remenants of our species able to propegate some other tracts of the universe, just incase we do destroy our selves? This experiment seems to me to hold great benefit to our species, but as in maths; for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - and thus this experiment could also potentially simultaneously be a trojan horse. I do not intend to add any opinions on this matter for I feel that I am hardly qualified, but I would genuinely like to see atleast some scientific debate about this proposal, in order for me to make up my own mind.

In addition I would like to remind people about scientific facts of historical past, and our views now of their facts, in hindsight.

Thank you,

Ryan Findlay

OmegaD said at July 9, 2007 3:09 PM:

I was going to leave my synopsis where it lay, but I can't help but comment on D. Gray's post.

Isn't it through our vast and unparalelled understanding of the sciences that we designed and built this super-cooled magnet CERN intended to use? And what's this? It needs to be RE-DESIGNED because it BROKE?! Unheard of!

Folks, engineering is my profession. Science and research are my hobbies. I can assure you - anyone advocating the perspective that "science" is "proven" and "trustworthy" is either ignorant or arrogant.

The facts are thus - science is a method of educated guessing based on observation. It is essentially a statistics game. For you younger folks - a little bit of research into the history of science would quickly reveal this truth. For a humorous but effective example look up the history of whether placing batteries in a refrigerator increases their life. Then consider - how complicated is a battery in comparison with the type of equipment and theory we're dealing with here?

axel de meester said at July 29, 2007 1:02 PM:

Sorry if i'm not so good in writing english because i'm flemish. I loved the quotes from CygniB, Andrew,Busta and OmegaD. They all have something to say that's right.
But you will think i'm a complete idiot if i give you this idea. We all know the Mayan calender, where for them the time ends on the 21 december 2012. Let's say that Cern is not able to start their experiment until december 2012... and things go wrong...then the Maya's where right ! (It's only a stupid thought of me,sorry again.

suggs said at July 31, 2007 11:50 AM:

Not sure if I approached this correctly but i thought I would put something on the UK prime minsters petitions website

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/LHCRisks/

dont know the maths well enough to judge this but i do know probability curves have a habit of missing the significant events that we need to worry about .....

Thankfully I live on a hill in England, above the current water levels, I believe we use scientists, statistics and super computers to do the math for the met office here!

d


Homo Pragmaticus said at August 6, 2007 11:02 AM:

UNBELIEVABLE!

Look, I am all for scientific experimentation. We couldn't enjoy all of our modern day conveniences without some scientist or researcher somewhere conducting experiments. However, it seems to me that the possible risk (destruction of the Earth) cannot possibly justify the potential reward (another theory, namely Hawking Radiation, can be verified with no practical real-world applications). This just seems like a bad bet for the Human Race with very little to no up-side. And it pains me to think that some French scientist could roll the dice with the lives of my children...

jimbeau said at August 7, 2007 8:20 PM:

before we start experimenting with the powers that consume the space, time and matter that we inhabit, maybe we should go out into the back yard of space, time and matter and try these experiments at arms length, yes i agree that the knowledge of black holes MUST be obtained but not at the cost of wisdom, theories have in the past needed adjustments, to see if the chamber of the gun is empty, you dont stick it to your head and pull the trigger, even if the equations are correct, its best not to light the fuse at home.

David McCaig said at August 11, 2007 7:48 AM:

If science had a 100% success rate I think we could all breath a bit easier. But unfortunately there have been far too many failures (plane crashes, collapsing bridges, collapsing stadiums and exploding space shuttles) for my liking. If the only risk of an out of control Black Hole was that it would gobble up the CERN laboratories, burp, fart, and then go away I'd say go for it. But I have a feeling that we would'nt be this lucky. However, making the earth disappear would certainly top anything David Copperfield could do and it certainly would eradicate the global warming problem.

Cranberryuplink said at August 30, 2007 9:02 PM:

Hi Gents!

After reading the text above and the articles available on the Internet, I am relatively sure that the GeV boys and girls will produce a mini black hole.

I for one believe that science is on the verge of figuring out gravity. Once this equation is solved, it’ll all come together for the human race. However, this discovery, while being the stepping-stone to dreams beyond our imagination, may come at a great price.

The creation of something as totally Quantum as a black hole must not be taken lightly. A famous songwriter once wrote, “… All of the buildings, all of the cars, were once just a dream in somebody’s head…” Yeah, I’m really sure those CERN folks will do this.

And of course, military agents from every country will be watching this very closely. There is not a single invention known to man that has not been used or incorporated into a killing device.


I read somewhere above that not everything we see come out of Hollywood is real. Hollywood has prophesized a good many current technologies – and tragedies.

I believe we are messing with the most basic yet complex force in nature. And, we may have very little control of it once it is produced. There is no reason to rush this.

Mr Sir..... said at August 31, 2007 8:49 PM:

Making a mini black hole is pushing the limits. Mankind is not at the right stage yet CERN you need to get your priorities right, we need to accomplish many other important issues for example diseases,environment etc.. In my eyes once we can work as one kind "mankind" without looking down at each other and are able to talk and discuss subjects like this with out going over the top at each other then i can say we ready to start to expand technology. Yes most of this might not have noting to do with the subject but if you think about it once we start with mini black holes others will copy or over push the limits. What control do we have over others CERN you not seting an good example you giving others stupid ideas.

Ok just say you do get this to work mini blacks holes ? what will it do help with power limits? or start something that may get ugly. Others will want it and im sure you wont give the Technology away to others. However im unsure of your back ground CERN if you know what you are doing and know the risks and out comes then go ahead. Just like to say theres one thing we have alot of and thats time dont rush.

Yoron said at September 2, 2007 12:10 PM:

" MINI BANGS

* Scientists aim to reproduce miniature versions of the so-called Big Bang, which is thought to have started the universe.
* To do this they will smash protons together at huge speeds along a 27km tube known as a particle accelerator.
* They hope to create tiny black holes or find extra dimensions in the universe.
* They estimate the possibility of accidentally destroying the planet as extremely low.
* The risk is calculated at about 10 to the minus 40 - a 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance.
- REUTERS "

Now my problem is what guarantees do they have for making this risk analysis out to be a fact?
The point here being that in QM nothing is sure, there exist possibilities for time running backward.
Also for fuzzy 'virtual particles/photons' interaction with normal matter. And 'srangelets' and...
As somebody pointed out. We have not studied any black hole, we have only emissions from extremely far away to guess around.

To say that we 'know' anything about black holes by deducing from that kind of info is like sitting with binoculars
on the moon watching light from some city on Earth and from there try to guess what that might mean.
Now one and one mostly make two, but in QM? Hey, give me a break.

That said i don't think the world is gonna stop, but then i put my trust not in Cern but in probability only,
the chances of surviving are huge, because for all that we don't known a large amount of that will work in our defense.
But it's still arrogance on a very high level, playing with everybody's life trusting to 'science'.
It's only become possible those last generations to do so. And we are a rather stupid and slow learning species,
as our inability to end poverty, overpopulation, warring and pollution shows.

I do believe that mathematics may be the language of the universe.
But then i also believe that some of our math may be for some other universe(s) :)
Like f ex that Frenchman that proved mathematically that all parallel lines will meet in the end ::))
And to trust any profession, military, legislative or scientific with the whole Earth:s survival is purely preposterous.
We can't even trust them with keeping radioactive wastes (half life of 1000 and counting.. years)
Where is the common sense in this?

It makes me proud :)

OmegaD said at September 3, 2007 8:19 AM:

"...They estimate the possibility of accidentally destroying the planet as extremely low. The risk is calculated at about 10 to the minus 40... - REUTERS "

This is ironic. The statistical probability of a "Big Bang" producing what you see today is much smaller than this. CERN is risking every life on earth to prove a theory that is mathematically impossible, and is using statistics to justify it. Wow.

As a society today we have become accustomed to viewing "scientists" as infalliable gods of knowlege. Whatever the "scientists" say must be true. These are just people with college degrees that have been taught by others, and sometimes do research. They're wrong all the time! They're just people! All they know is what they've been told by others and what they have observed.

When you boil it down, all a scientist can tell you is what they have observed, and what their opinion is about that observation. Concerning black holes, all they have OBSERVED is that black holes appear to exist in distant parts of the galaxy, and appear to eat up everything around them, increasing in mass and strength as they go along. It is their OPINION that they can create one in their lab and contain it adequately.

To me it's very arrogant to place the planet at risk and say it is "improbible" that you will destroy all life on earth.

Walter L. Wagner said at September 3, 2007 11:52 AM:

The Large Hadron Collider [LHC] at CERN might create numerous different particles that heretofore have only been theorized. Numerous peer-reviewed science articles have been published on each of these, and if you google on the term "LHC" and then the particular particle, you will find hundreds of such articles, including:

1) Higgs boson

2) Magnetic Monopole

3) Strangelet

4) Miniature Black Hole [aka nano black hole]

In 1987 I first theorized that colliders might create miniature black holes, and expressed those concerns to a few individuals. However, Hawking's formula showed that such a miniature black hole, with a mass of under 10,000,000 a.m.u., would "evaporate" in about 1 E-23 seconds, and thus would not move from its point of creation to the walls of the vacuum chamber [taking about 1 E-11 seconds travelling at 0.9999c] in time to cannibalize matter and grow larger.

In 1999, I was uncertain whether Hawking radiation would work as he proposed. If not, and if a mini black hole were created, it could potentially be disastrous. I wrote a Letter to the Editor to Scientific American [July, 1999] about that issue, and they had Frank Wilczek, who later received a Nobel Prize for his work on quarks, write a response. In the response, Frank wrote that it was not a credible scenario to believe that minature black holes could be created, but then suggested that strangelets might be created.

Well, since then, numerous theorists have asserted to the contrary. Google on "LHC Black Hole" for a plethora of articles on how the LHC might create miniature black holes, which those theorists believe will be harmless because of their faith in Hawking's theory of evaporation via quantum tunneling.

The idea that rare ultra-high-energy cosmic rays striking the moon [or other astronomical body] create natural miniature black holes -- and therefore it is safe to do so in the laboratory -- ignores one very fundamental difference.

In nature, if they are created, they are travelling at about 0.9999c relative to the planet [or star] that was struck, and would for example zip through the moon in about 0.1 seconds, very neutrino-like because of their ultra-tiny Schwartzschild radius, and high speed. They would likely not interact at all, or if they did, glom on to perhaps a quark or two, barely decreasing their transit momentum.

At the LHC, however, any such novel particle created would be relatively 'at rest', and be captured by Earth's gravitational field, and would repeatedly orbit through Earth, if stable and not prone to decay. If such miniature black holes don't rapidly evaporate and are produced in copious abundance [1/second by some theories], there is a much greater probability that eventually one would interact and grow larger, compared to what occurs in nature.

There are a host of other problems with the "cosmic ray argument" posited by those who believe it is safe to create miniature black holes. This continuous oversight of obvious flaws in reasoning certainly should give one pause to consider what other oversights might be present in the theories they seek to test.

I am not without some experience in science.

In 1975 I discovered the tracks of a novel particle on a balloon-borne cosmic ray detector. "Evidence for Detection of a Moving Magnetic Monopole", Price et al., Physical Review Letters, August 25, 1975, Volume 35, Number 8. A magnetic monopole was first theorized in 1931 by Paul A.M. Dirac, Proceedings of the Royal Society (London), Series A 133, 60 (1931), and again in Physics Review 74, 817 (1948). While some pundits claimed that the tracks represented a doubly-fragmenting normal nucleus, the data was so far removed from that possibility that it would have been only a one-in-one-billion chance, compared to a novel particle of unknown type. The data fit perfectly with a Dirac monopole.

While I would very much love to see whether we can create a magnetic monopole in a collider, ethically I cannot support such because of the risks involved.

For more information, go to: www.LHCdefense.org

Regards,


Walter L. Wagner (Dr.)

OmegaD said at September 8, 2007 11:49 AM:

Walter,

Thank you for that detailed account of the actual risks involved in CERN's project.

I agree that CERN's plans are foolish - it is good to see a Nuclear Physicist speaking out against their actions.

It is curious to me how the UN can focus so closely on the existance of nuclear weapons, but let something like this go unaddressed. An endeavor like this jeapordizing all life on earth should have more attention from the governing bodies of our planet. I hope your legal action is successful.

Twat Buster said at September 24, 2007 10:50 PM:

groche - Sorry to say this, but your commen was that of a complete and utter twat. The created black hole will be IN CONTACT with the Earth, and so your argument that we are safe as long as we stay away from is is moot. Twat lol

cygni b said at October 5, 2007 11:06 PM:

The idea of a man made black hole evaporating in a vacuum before it can contact anything is an exercise in math. Once the narrow exercise in math is complete then many feel action is justified because the math problem is solved. As with all math, there is always another variable that can be added. Often the math problem itself does not directly apply to the known or unknown factors. For instance, can a black hole absorb and sustain itself, even briefly (a variable) on something besides mass? (Before it conveniently evaporates) A vacuum will not prevent light from passing. The only vacuum from light we have is around a black hole. (I would call such a vacuum of light a black hole but someone beat me to it). Now isn't that interesting. Halfway across the galaxy the black holes eat light, while in Europe they don't. French Europeans are very picky eaters and they are said to eat lite. Pardon the pun (eat light, oh never mind), you get my point. Building CERN on the border between France and Switzerland was foresight as in the rest of Europe they eat almost anything. Well, there you have it. Solving this French black hole problem is like ordering food from a waiter with a math problem. You just never know what will be served up, or down, or in. What I just wrote should be enough to give you indigestion CERNtainly, but also, is a perfect vacuum possible? If our waiter serves the food mistakenly peppered with a few stray specks of mass, well what the heck, I'm not one to complain. When in France do what the French do, I guess or was that Rome? Also, probably somebody is positive that in a French black hole they can not get Swiss television stations, no reception you see there in a black hole, because radio waves can't make it in. Or is it they can't make it out so we don't know if they made it in. A French mini black hole may find a whole(hole) salad of no mass items to sustain it before it reaches the mass oasis to give it enough strength to start making Swiss cheese of us all. Someone needs to xray this CERN project a little closer before it lights up. But then....xrays could be a bad thing. Well, if I am wrong, then I want to pick up a couple of these 'very useful' black holes once they are developed and marketed at wal-mart. I would recommend they be contained in something like the useful Rubik's cube with a hole in one end so I can sharpen my pencil with it, so I don't write all this sarcasm pointlessly.

Horse said at October 23, 2007 5:49 AM:

such interesting comments above.

one can take the view - they know what they are doing etc

or,

We should all be slightly concerned.......why? lets face it, we really dont know much about the true state of nature, all the things that truly 'are' and our understanding of them. There is so much we dont know because we dont know its existence yet or can only guess at it and run experiments to advance our knowledge. This kind of physics at CERN is still so esoteric,there is no way to know ALL the variables of what can or cant happen. So many things in science have been stumbled upon from 'happy' accidents or byproducts of the experiment.

One wonders what the byproducts and unknowns may throw up in this kind of endeavour.... thats not being over-dramamtic, just a common sense fact.......

the harder they fall said at December 22, 2007 3:26 PM:

The arrogance of man has no limits and it would beits downfall, we dont know much about balck holes, lets face it. We have though a proved theory - Einstein - and a speculative article of a wannabe Einstein that ends 'Einstein is double wrong' by one Hawking, never received nobel prize, never got a single prove of a black hole evaporating in 30 years of experiments while all of them have behave as Einstein'srelatitvity predicted, sucking in at c-rotational speed the matter around it - thats a few seconds fo the Earth, another supernova. We dont know much bt we have a 13 billion $ machine and the entire high-tech industry behind it. CERN spends more energy that geneva, more hellium and ultra-expensive superconductive cables than the rest of planet earth. Im a scientist but im human first. We live in a Universe designed for balck holes, this is more and more clear. Just this week we saw one beating up with an ultradense jet a galaxy maybe to eat it up. For those who like maths a black hole that has eaten the most common object of this galaxy, a planetoid of the moon size, would be in exact thermal equilibrium with the 2.7 k background radiation, and would emit the same blackground radiation undistiguishable... so here is the hypothesis: miniblack holes dotn evapoate, they were created as theory predicts in the bigbang and go around eating moon-like planetoids and are in the halo of dark matter, where all physicists they think they might be. But since they dont evaporate they are just in thermal equilibrium with the Universe and we will be there soon... Those people are religious believers the president of cern said it will be the moment 'closer to god' of mankind. Might he be truth. As the big-bang might have been one of those exploding, but i rather be closer to my child.
take care

Marcus Aurelias said at January 2, 2008 8:17 AM:

I can see the point in not risking the Earth based on a statistic (even a 1 in a million event happens eventually and statistically may just happen the first time!). But isn't one point being glossed over here ? "The black holes will be in contact with the Earth" - well, no. It's really, really small compared even to an atom, so it can drift right through the Earth and miss every damn atom on the way. OK it may NOT miss all the atoms - it may hit the odd one. THAT's the worry. Exaggerated or just plain wrong arguments are why the general public get so confused that they take no action at all. Come on guys - get the arguments right!

chris said at January 10, 2008 8:57 PM:

why cant we just wait til we have the techonology 2 send us to pluto...make a black hole there

James said at March 3, 2008 5:08 AM:

if we made a blackhole on pluto and it became wild and escaped i am guessing it would soon eat earth too, munching through the outer planets and making its own enormus gravity and effecting us very quickly.

Human life is very short and that will always be a reason for people to do crazy things some of which will prove benficial for all of us, some will be extremely dangerous and/or stupid, but the vast amount will be irrelevent and go unoticed.

Are we ready to create black holes? NO

I see a huge technological imbalance in this world, we still struggle to live to 100 years old, simple bacteria still cruise around killing off millions and the food crisis, well i shouldnt need to explain that one.

We might be getting more intelligent but we are getting dumber and lack wisdom, i think the world needs a real crisis to pull us all together and all those scientists creating black holes need a slap around the chops and to find a real job, mayby curing sick or old people and fixing our population growth problem.

And i think many of them would love to change jobs but its a question of MONEY. Too many ego trippers with too much power and money dictating what we as a human society choose to excel in; like black holes, weapons and blowing people up

Scalper said at March 10, 2008 8:22 PM:

many of you don't realize one thing. The black hole that we are creating will not be large enough to sustain itself. The size, as stated earlier could pass through the earth without touching a single nucleus on an atom, and if it even happened to do that, it would take days to completely eat one single proton!!! this would equate to the black hole will have to be around longer than the earth is old right now before it can actually finish eating earth, which, by then, it will have dissappated into nothingness.

Danny said at March 11, 2008 6:21 AM:

The dominant force is a vacuum on a higher plain not gravity. If we do create a black hole it will be like pricking a hole in a sheet of paper covering the nozzle of a hoover. The sheet of paper protects us from the full brunt of the vacuum, however it is so powerfull we still see its effect in our plain hence gravity is so weak. Now if we do prick this paper, it will not heal, the power of the vacuum will sense the weakness and will rip time apart.

David said at March 28, 2008 11:16 AM:

were all entitled to our opinions, an say mini black holes are no danger,but what if the mini starts to grow, we don't know, im the scientific type so im generally for experiments though i remind everyone who as commented(not that everyone needs a reminder) and of course the readers, that it's 'our world' we may be putting at risk, so my question is 'where is the democracy in such unknown an perhaps catastrophic experiments?
In another sense i'm exited that we may be around to be thoroughly filled with wonder!
(i think it insults males and females to use gender slang likes been used and ie dickhead)

Lawrence Cassidy said at April 8, 2008 8:33 PM:

Beware of the clever ape! In his arrogance and foolishness, man plays god; but, in actuality, he is nothing more than a clever ape. This clever ape played god when he split the atom, thus releasing a terrible genie from its bottle. Ever since and forever more, this clever ape, and his very existence, has been and will be terrorized and jeopardized by the terrible genie he released. Now, for the sake of science, vain science, this clever ape wants to play god again by creating miniature, subatomic black holes, not for the sake of saving earth from some terrible threat, but rather just to prove that he can. Beware of the clever ape! Not learning from his mistakes in the past, the consequences of which haunt us to this day, this clever ape is about to release another even more terrible genie upon the earth. Once it is let out of the bottle, there is no getting it back inside. Beware of the clever ape!

Homo sapiens . . . not!

Homo insanum . . . for sure!

Smarter than you said at April 9, 2008 6:12 PM:

You all clearly know very little about physics! Starting with the topic of this "blackhole" that you are so scared about. In order to create a black hole, you need an unthinkable amount of mass. The only way to create enough mass in order to create one, you would need to have to objects, in this case particles, to be moving at the speed of light. It is theorized that infinite mass is created at those speeds so yes, a particle can way that much. These to particles moving at the speed of light (which need i say, is impossible, even with a 20 mile long accelerator) would collide and for a blackhole that would exist FOR LESS THAN HALF A SECOND!! Not enough time to grow into a black hole that would engulf the universe. Now, if you can pull yourselves away from your anime and sci fi video games for one more minute, I will continue. Top scientists already believe that black holes already exist in our galaxy. Oh, and if you didn't notice, WE ARE NOT BEING SUCKED INTO THEM!!!!!!!!11 No black hole could be created by the technology being used at CERN. This particle accelerator is being used to try and find such things as the "God Particle" which is also something that would exist for less than a milisecond. So stop worrying your silly little brains and go back to hunting zombies and playing pokemon. There are no mad scientists trying to kill us. You are all fucking stupid!!

Smarter than you said at April 9, 2008 6:14 PM:

You all clearly know very little about physics! Starting with the topic of this "blackhole" that you are so scared about. In order to create a black hole, you need an unthinkable amount of mass. The only way to create enough mass in order to create one, you would need to have to objects, in this case particles, to be moving at the speed of light. It is theorized that infinite mass is created at those speeds so yes, a particle can way that much. These to particles moving at the speed of light (which need i say, is impossible, even with a 20 mile long accelerator) would collide and for a blackhole that would exist FOR LESS THAN HALF A SECOND!! Not enough time to grow into a black hole that would engulf the universe. Now, if you can pull yourselves away from your anime and sci fi video games for one more minute, I will continue. Top scientists already believe that black holes already exist in our galaxy. Oh, and if you didn't notice, WE ARE NOT BEING SUCKED INTO THEM!!!!!!!!11 No black hole could be created by the technology being used at CERN. This particle accelerator is being used to try and find such things as the "God Particle" which is also something that would exist for less than a milisecond. I respect oppinions but the submission dealing with this subject was wrong.

Optimist said at April 11, 2008 10:34 AM:

Look, it is all very clear that the Earth is flat and is orbited by every planet in the system of Sol, plus Sol himself, so what is all the fuss about? If it didn't happen in the Bible, then it didn't happen, so the Earth is really 6,000 years old anyway, and all this 'big bang' stuff is just pony-stroking. Personally, I think when CERN finally creates a singularity, Jim Morrison and Elvis are going to pop out of it and steal all our women, so what will there be to live for after that? I think ultimately this will cause the CERN experiments to lead to male mass-suicide and/or implosion due to clogged pipes with the whole Morrison/Presley problem, so fokkk Hawking radiation and Earth-consuming black holes anyway, we are doomed to die as celibate hermaphrodites.

You're not smarter than anybody said at April 19, 2008 10:00 PM:

"blackhole that would exist FOR LESS THAN HALF A SECOND!"

Hey idiot, you just ignored the whole debate. That is exactly what is in question here. It is NOT fact that they will exist for less than half a second, it's a THEORY. Fact does not equal theory. Einstein predicted black holes would remain stable - hawking radiation could be entirely false. If so we're in for a bad time. So you can take your arrogant attitude and shove it right up your ass, because you're clearly a tool who believes everything he's told without questioning it.

"Oh, and if you didn't notice, WE ARE NOT BEING SUCKED INTO THEM!"

That is without any shadow of a doubt the worse analogy I've ever heard. Do you think that might be because of the distance between them and us? If our sun were to become a black hole Earth would orbit it as usual. From a distance gravity does not increase, it's only as you get closer to the black hole that you get pulled in. The plethora of stellar and supermassive black holes are many light years away. That is why we're not being 'sucked into them.'

Marcelo Barajas said at April 22, 2008 11:21 AM:

Eventually, we are all ending in a black hole.

Tarek said at April 25, 2008 12:31 AM:

What's funny is all safety is thrown out the window if Hwking's theory is wrong. After all Einstein's theory on blackholes was disproved. Or was it?
Our safety concerns are not idiotic. Sometimes theories are wrong. By the way, what is Stranglet matter?

activ8 said at April 28, 2008 1:35 PM:

This is a quote from: http://www.notepad.ch

Help save the universe. notepad. take note.


What it is like to work here

The following quote is from a blog at Cernwatch.com, apparently from an insider at CERN LHC:

'I am writing this blog becuase I am seeing some strange things that I have not seen before. I notice higher levels of security, and more US military presence. I hear strange rumors and weird Jokes. I think that there is more going on that what is being let out. i will report to you everything I hear and see.'

Link to the complete blog message:
http://www.cernwatch.com/2008/04/hello.html

STIlover said at May 21, 2008 10:26 AM:

We're waiting for you Dr. Freeman... in the TEST chamber...

Kevin Freeman said at May 22, 2008 10:36 PM:

You people are all crazy. All of the modern day physics and our limited interpretation of the reality around us will be laughed at by school children 100 years from now.

Although this strangely reminds me of a dream I had set in the future.

Hannah said at July 1, 2008 7:07 AM:

It's funny to see how a scientific issue can be this contentious. Science, a supposedly rational thing, is being turned into a thoroughly emotional and irrational ridiculousness here. I don't know what to think of it.

The good thing about this discussion, however causeless it might be, is that you're once again reminded to live in the moment. Make other people happy, now, and live till the black hole has sucked up everything (or not).

Sith said at September 4, 2008 2:36 PM:

They say the experiment will take place around the end of this year.
Damn, now I still have to study over 3 months possibly for nothing. :>

I find it disturbing they place all their trust in Hawking's theories. Yes THEORIES, so not facts. Playing Russian roulette with mankind.

STIlover said at May 21, 2008 10:26 AM:
We're waiting for you Dr. Freeman... in the TEST chamber...

Yes I know what you mean. Another 'experiment' gone wrong but the one they're planning is not a game.

Some ppl here claim that a stable micro black hole will devour us in a second or two, while others say it would take an eternity.
Let's not forget it's an exponential process. The more it eats, the more it can eat per second.

I believe there could still be many unknown and even smaller particles than quarks. We still don't know what 'energy' or 'gravity' actually is.
For them to claim the tube is a vacuum is pure speculation. Because you can't see sth doesn't mean it can't be there.

If Hawking got it right it will be time for him to gloat. If he's wrong, there will be no one around to tell 'I told you so.'

Paul said at September 5, 2008 6:51 AM:

CERN's LHC has been delayed.

Latest news is that it will become operational on Wednesday 10th September. It is not expected that it will reach its full potential for several months, as they slowly crank up the accelerator...

Leonardo said at September 7, 2008 10:58 AM:

It was not that long ago that Global Warming was considered by the "scientists" as "scaremongering" and "rubbish". It was not that long ago that people were put on the stake if they dared to proclaim that the earth was not flat and was round instead.

Theories? That's all that it is, a theory. And more often than not a theory is proven to be wrong.

Mankind is fast on the way to destroying itself. If there are three absolutes then it is this: 1) We will all die (no one has not died yet) 2) Change is inevitable and 3) The rate of change is ever increasing.

If we look at the last of these three absolutes then we can see that mankind has accelerated the rate of destruction of the planet considerably, even in our lifetime.

How I wish some of the "terrorists" would help these scientists (who like to play God) to an early meeting with God.

Billy Nomates said at September 7, 2008 2:56 PM:

I'm a simple soul. Not a scientist, not a mathematician - just a sensible chap. Now it seems to me that, reading all the stuff above (and a good deal elsewhere), there are many scientists involved in this project whose actual position on the possible repercussions of this venture is to say: "we're pretty sure we won't do something that might endanger everyone."

However, the same scientists are also saying that it will be "fascinating to see what actually happens."

Now that can also be said in this way: "I don't know what's going to happen, but...we're pretty sure we won't do something that might endanger everyone and it will be fascinating to see what actually happens". I'm all for science and all that it provides: internet, telly, oil central heating, Stanna stairlifts - even the M25 (sometimes), but 5 billion quid spent on a machine so that one scientist can say to another: "ner ner ne ner ner" as the planet gets sucked into oblivion seems a bit stupid.

It's never too late to say: "actually, I'm not sure this is a good idea."

Please don't blow me up - the rugby season has just started.

MARC SEFCIK said at September 8, 2008 12:34 AM:

well, another ignoramus speaks. atoms are tiny. what if someone (al einstein?) had tried a little reaction in his lab? BOOM from such a little thing! mesons, protons and all those littler-than-atom particles- well, the smaller the more powerful? hopefully not... i am not an anti-science type. i only fear that if this is a success, a bigger black hole will be needed to further research, then a bigger, etc. i hope a wild one doesn't slip away one day. watch those quarks!-marc

Helen said at September 9, 2008 2:11 AM:

After reading all of the above and now feeling very depressed I would like to express my concerns over something that seems once again to be quite pointless. What will it achieve?

jai said at September 9, 2008 7:17 AM:

I disagree!!

i dont want them to do it i just saw this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moEzECvJDas
i don't know if this is whats going to happen or not, but there putting the world in danger, cause people don't know yet if its going to work fine or if its going to go badly wrong??

i for one am not ready to die yet, and i really dont want them to end the world they should be in jail and locked up cause there putting the world in danger!

but i agree with them doing a exspriment and seeing what they can do , a little black hole is ok but what if that hole gets bigger and ends up like on that video??
or what if it exspluods when they switch it on, our worlds going to be gone eaither way!! my answer is dont switch it on distroy it!!

and i cant belive people are looking forward to this i mean our world might end, i mean for goodness sake.

please are they going to do it for defant!?

x

jai said at September 9, 2008 7:18 AM:

I disagree!!

i dont want them to do it i just saw this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moEzECvJDas
i don't know if this is whats going to happen or not, but there putting the world in danger, cause people don't know yet if its going to work fine or if its going to go badly wrong??

i for one am not ready to die yet, and i really dont want them to end the world they should be in jail and locked up cause there putting the world in danger!

but i agree with them doing a exspriment and seeing what they can do , a little black hole is ok but what if that hole gets bigger and ends up like on that video??
or what if it exspluods when they switch it on, our worlds going to be gone eaither way!! my answer is dont switch it on distroy it!!

and i cant belive people are looking forward to this i mean our world might end, i mean for goodness sake.

please are they going to do it for defant!?

x

cygni b said at September 9, 2008 11:24 AM:

So the time has come. It is almost hopeful that the initial findings (while we survive) will point to surprises that make the CERN researchers more cautious. Trial and error have always been the worst side of science, but science has always opted for it in the lack of known effect. However good science always includes caution or delay or containment before proceeding. Where is the caution here, where is the delay and where is the containment? Hopefully the only sinkhole produced will be the one that has already been created here for money. There is an argument that the ability to create a black hole is easier than finding space flight to the stars. Perhaps scientists elsewhere in the galaxy could not resist the temptation either. Everyone who walks through a dark hall will hit their head on a low beam. Those who duck often or walk cautiously are often labeled paranoid. I would rather have skipped the black hole and put the money into space flight. Then we could have done this experiment elsewhere in the galaxy. That would have been cautious, a delay past our selfish lifetime, and containment. Since the safety of this experiment seems to be based on odds (non-black hole producing cosmic radiation/collision elsewhere), the odds will now change as it will be done again and again, with more power, etc. Someone may get bored and throw in different mass particles between the collisions here. (Just to see what happens). It's a slippery slope. Surely there is something interesting to do that is productive, might even be less expensive, and safer would be nice.

Chris R said at September 9, 2008 8:18 PM:

Im going to max out my credit cards :D

spaceboy1jr said at September 10, 2008 12:38 AM:

Countdown commencing . . . Prepare for timewarp . . . Interestingly, it is not the earth and its inhabitants that will vanish; rather, an observer beyond the "event horizon" could witness the formation of the so-called black matter).

Black matter already exists on this planet! (By and large this man-made "dirt" is a by-product of all such high energy experiments - including the covert "anti-gravity" experiments).

There is no secret that the "Westinghouse" experiments conducted under the direction of one "wierd" Nicola Tesla have already proved that "black matter" can be created, and can do little to benefit mankind at this point in time. However, the "Westinghouse" experiments were not contained, and caused a permanent "warpage" in the space/time continuum in the test area/s; this should not be the case with the LHC experiments (if containment is guaranteed to be permanent).

The LHC will be conducted within a "magnetic cage" and the "dark matter/pseudo plasma" will be contained within the four (4) vacuum chambers. This is the main reason why the supercooling is a necessity and also complements the hyper-plasma ionic transmission vacuum pumps.

It is a physical impossibility for this "black matter" to swallow the Earth; however, the primitive methods that this hyper plasma is envisaged to be created with may be a different matter for the CERN team, ie. if anything should go wrong with the "containment".

In anticipation to the question that already manifests itself: What should happen if the vacuum or magnets should fail? Well, that depends on just how much hyper-plasma has been created/generated and what time/space continuum effects such black matter would have on the overall environment. My personal prediction is that black matter tends to agglomerate, so perhaps the "material" will "collect" exactly where most time/space anomalies are already occuring around the planet (still not understood).

I personally witnessed a small "warp" a few years ago where "material" vanished from a given time/space and then re-appeared at a different location(space/time), following exposure to "black matter". Since the technology does not currently exist to measure the "chronology" of "negative time", I can only speculate that time/space shifts can also occur in "negative time" (maybe dejavu is able to ascertain this, who knows?).

I hope that the above information will alleviate the imminent fear that a "catastrophic event" is about to happen; however, this in no way excuses the amount of "weird" "black matter" currently being generated and released into the environment - the long term effects of this are unknown and with the newer high power particle accellerators "black matter" is only going to increase at a much greater rate.

Stephen Voysey said at September 10, 2008 4:54 AM:

Wow - I guess I'd better sell all my possessions and start watching for the end of the universe - in the great tradition of millenial groups and followers of Nostradamus and all the rest who seem to know the "times and seasons" of existence.

Chris said at September 10, 2008 5:28 AM:

A brief review of history for perspective.

When they initiated the first atomic blast in New Mexico there was speculation on whether the reaction would stop or continue. There were concerns it may even ignite the atmosphere and kill us all. How did that end? We all lived but the interesting point is that *there were concerns and they did it anyway*. These people want to be the first to do something and they will risk us all just as long as they can be the first.

I remember hearing my grandmother tell me this story (being concerned with the reaction not stopping or the atmosphere being evaporated)when I was young and I didnt believe her until I got older and confirmed she wasnt being paranoid old grandmother, she just remembered the concern of the time.

Scientific Russian Roulette

Jason Southgate said at September 10, 2008 6:16 AM:

The Swiss can't manage risk. NB Union Bank of Switzerland. As far as I'm concerned, these CERN scientists are egg-heads with no heart, who pose the biggest ever risk to our already fragile ecosystem. Black holes anywhere near our beautiful earth mother should be vehemently opposed at all costs. I am a left-handed, highly intuitive Bachelor of Science (with Honours) who senses grave danger for Gaia in the light of 2012 and the Hopi prophesies. One love, one heart.

This is most toxic.

Kaj said at September 10, 2008 6:23 AM:

Lol. i read a comment about time machines..... how did i know that would come up.
no, time travel is not possible, with black holes. it isnt.
No, firing a array of particles at light speed through a black hole will NOT open up a 'VOID' from where you can go to any period/ place in time and space. its all fiction and speculation. Even if that were possible, its impractical. the nearest black hole is light years away, and a light year....well...its a LONG way away... you really want to travel for centuries just to see if this works....stupid. Plus, the event horizon of a black hole is immeasurable. you cant do it because, you get near to those, and *bang* your gone. dead. or whatever happens.
Next time you say: 'black holes gravitational pull can be measured, i invite you to stand next to one with a tape measure.
Thank you.

Bith said at September 10, 2008 7:55 AM:

Wait a second, im not a scientist,im 15, but i wondered how can a black hole grow, i mean isnt a black hole composed from antimatter and it sucks up matter , its like an ecuasion black hole(-1)+matter(+1)=0(nothing) ,isnt it neutralizing the black hole? and if not, where does the matter go?

Chase Hudson said at September 10, 2008 12:45 PM:

This is a serious problem. Despite that the chances of problems are exponenitially low, the fact that there could be a problem big enough destroy the Earth should be completely avoided. The facts are that black holes are extremely dangerous because their gravity is strong enough to suck in light!(In case you didn't know, thats why they're called black holes) Even though the people working on this say it couldn't pull anything in, how would they know. Yeah, it looks good on paper but noone has ever dealt with a real black hole up close before.

Yes, this research on black holes could help us understand the Higgs boson and time travel, but its not worth putting the Earth in danger. And yes there are other black holes here on Earth but while God my be protecting us from the natural ones, making one is just pushing our luck a little too far.(By the way these black holes are below even atomic size scale) If the CERN scientists want to find out about the Higgs boson and time travel, they can look for other means to do it. It should be an international crime to even think about attempting this again. (yes again, they already held the experiment once in May of this year) This is just like saying "Lets put a bomb in a statium full of people and hope the trigger doesn't accidentally get pulled." Pretty stupid, right? I think the UN should treat these men like the international terroists they are.

The bottom line is there is a risk however low and there is nothing in the world worth the risk of losing the world.

Harry said at September 11, 2008 3:33 AM:

Reading all the profanity, arrogance and downright stupidity of most of the comments, I can only hope a black hole is produced and the earth is swallowed up!

eric g said at September 12, 2008 2:53 PM:

they say it happens millions of times in space but it is a differrent story when its happening around diffrent gases to be honest i would rather them shut the hole thing down no one could be 100 % positive sure of what can happen in the fraction of a second that the black holes will open

Jakob H said at September 12, 2008 3:31 PM:

Quick question derived from a line from the previous post:"they say it happens millions of times in space".

I very much rely on the abilities of the scientist in CERN, but maybee some of you
could inform me why (with the huge amount of resources spend/available for this kind of research in mind)
is it not possible to set up labs/construction (on earth or in space) measuring and analysing on the
naturally particle collisions which the quote refers to?

Tristan Fitzgerald said at September 17, 2008 2:00 PM:

Okay, I know that any comment that is made in a forum such as this will usually fall upon dead ears. Most people here have made there mind one way or the other, and only the individual has the power to truly change their mind. Couple of points...

First of the Maya date of 2012, IS NOT apocalyptic. The skill or their calendar is amazing yes, but it merely marks what their culture marked as the death of the old gods and the coming of new ones. In other words change. Many cultures have had similar ideas, mind you that most of the Christian ideas were adapted from prior cultures and adjusted. The view of the Apocalypse probably originally meant just change and the was beefed up a bit. Damn good marketing.

Next how do you know that something that you are not studied in is so dangerous? We all have electricity running through our houses, it is dangerous, but we see the benefits and only allow electricians to muck with it... sometimes. The most amazing ability of our brain is the ability to think of the possible outcomes. Unfortunately, research proves that almost all of the time these thoughts are wrong as we think that things will be much grander or lesser than actuality when it tends to fall right in the middle.

On the nature of Black hole longevity. A black hole could exist potentially of either matter or antimatter as long as significant mass existed to create a gravitational pull large enough. Either form of matter can not contact or the differences are canceled, your (+1)+(-1)=0 Bith. In our reality there are constant random occurrences in which a (+1) and (-1) pop into existence, then cancel one another out. Hawking radiation theory is that when these two pop into existence at the event horizon of a black hole, one falls in, the other is outside of the event horizon and doesn't. Because you can't make 1=0 and the energy to maintain the existence of these new partials mush come from some where, it is taken from the Black hole. Decreasing its energy and radius. Note: I am not well versed in much physics so there may be some inaccuracies.

Please, you are on the web and there is a wealth of knowledge out there, use it, and most of all question it. More over question your own thoughts. The nature of reality is not certain and neither should your mind be. Your opinions are those of a fools, but so are min. So, it makes more sense that we respect one another's foolish opinions so that we can learn and make better new foolish opinions. =)

Troysgfx said at November 24, 2009 6:27 PM:

This is silly.
A black hole is a star with so much mass that atoms are crushed. The amount of mass that goes through these machines in a life time would be less than the amount of ink on a period of 9 size font. What I think we will see is matter that matches black holes at the quantum level but it will explode because not enough mass and gravity to hold in the nuclear force pressure. The strong force is trillions of times stronger than gravity at this low mass. A microscopic explosion at best.

What do I know. Im just a cook at a cafe that read lots of physics books.

Al said at February 14, 2010 9:42 AM:

5/21/2011

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